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By Scott at Team Harco
#58811
Alright - which one of you assholes pissed in Shifted's Wheaties?

I don't know who he is or what his problem is. The only exposure I've had is related to a few miscellaneous threads with basic questions. Maybe if he didn't get the answer he wanted, he got all pissy? There does seem to be a fair chance he spent a lot of money on some fancy wheels that probably won't fit properly. Maybe he's all butt-hurt over that. Who knows?

Regardless, it looks as though he has taken his ball and gone home. Nice work, boys. :roflmao:
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By fpena944
#58814
I didn't receive any complaints or reports from anyone so at a loss as to what happened.
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By Scott at Team Harco
#58819
fpena944 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:50 pm I didn't receive any complaints or reports from anyone so at a loss as to what happened.
It looks as though he deleted most, if not all, of his posts. I never got a feel for his attitude. Maybe if he ventured into the Dive Bar, his true colors would have been revealed.

Some people; you just can't please.
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By fpena944
#58825
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:20 pm
fpena944 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:50 pm I didn't receive any complaints or reports from anyone so at a loss as to what happened.
It looks as though he deleted most, if not all, of his posts. I never got a feel for his attitude. Maybe if he ventured into the Dive Bar, his true colors would have been revealed.

Some people; you just can't please.
Yeah I get not feeling like this might your home but why not just make a graceful exit instead of throwing a hand grenade while you close the door behind you?
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By Crumpler
#58827
My guess Scott, is that it had something to do with this?
You tell me, I was at work.
Image

Shifted was a pretty important contributor to our smaller forum, in terms of content here. So if he left it’s a loss for all of us.
He took the time to create spreadsheets of information for me when I was in the planning stages of my supercharger build. I don’t take that lightly, he’s a good guy.
I don’t want another RL atmosphere here, that’s what we left behind.
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By Scott at Team Harco
#58829
Sorry - but I won't take the blame for his exit. He called me out for providing incorrect information. There was absolutely nothing incorrect in my assessment of offset and how wheels are measured. It is much more likely that he has something happening in his life that has put him off-center.

I wish I had quoted his post. It would be clear that there was something happening, and it was on his end.
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By maddog2020
#58833
he was really argumentative. you could tell from the pics that the wheels weren't going to fit. It sucks and I've been there. It doesn't help that the wheel company has changed hands more than a few times and don't even know what they have. I've talked to one of the owners and he is nice, but clueless about wheels, and what they have or what they make as another company (Kodiak) makes them.
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By worf
#58903
Crumpler wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:49 pm Shifted was a pretty important contributor to our smaller forum, in terms of content here. So if he left it’s a loss for all of us.
Content that he has now deleted as a way to say "Fuck ALL of you!" :confused:
I don’t want another RL atmosphere here, that’s what we left behind.
Members deciding to conduct a Scorched Earth campaign on their Rennlist posts is one of the reasons the owners became putative.

I don't recall El Jefe's position on Scorched Earth but, regardless it is NOT cool.
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By worf
#58910
maddog2020 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:41 pm he was really argumentative. you could tell from the pics that the wheels weren't going to fit.
From pictures? Seriously?

From what I recall he was perturbed that the wheels were not exactly what he ordered. And that ...

maddog2020 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:41 pm It sucks and I've been there. It doesn't help that the wheel company has changed hands more than a few times and don't even know what they have. I've talked to one of the owners and he is nice, but clueless about wheels, and what they have or what they make as another company (Kodiak) makes them.
... is perfectly fine. What I found curious was how he went from getting the wheels to about four hours later picking up his marbles, scrubbing-out the playing field and going home. As far as I can see he never mounted the wheels nor did he engage with either Fikse/Kodiak or 928 Specialists to see if they could affect a correction to his satisfaction.
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By SeanR
#58913
Dunno if he is going to come back or not and for me that's just fine. When you ask for advice and then don't hear what you want to hear (welding on a 928 thread) and then get pissy one sorta decides to not participate any longer. Sounds like the kinda guy who gets pissed off when you get brake rotors in the mail and are upset that they didn't come in original boxes and had a bit of painted hat over spray on the disk faces and then gets angry and wants to return them.
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By Scott at Team Harco
#58921
ROG100 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:52 am I see "Deleted" but when I look at the posts I see nothing was deleted.
Except all of his posts.
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By maddog2020
#58922
worf wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:37 am
maddog2020 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:41 pm he was really argumentative. you could tell from the pics that the wheels weren't going to fit.
From pictures? Seriously?
yep I could tell by the pics. Unfortunately I'm intimately familiar with Fikse FM10 wheels and their fitment on a 928. The only way they fit is with a 1 inch outer lip, and because of the way the wheel center mounts its virtually flat. And that barely fits. Event then the tires stick out past the fender. So when you have the 2 inch lip, no way no how are they going to fit. and to boot he measured wrong. My guess he re measured after we provided info on how to accurately measure, and yeah I poked him a bit but he would not listen. On multiple threads he asks for advice and then argues with you about your experience and advice.
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By fpena944
#58951
Just wanted to chime in quickly...

Part of what we discussed early on was that you all own the content you create. So if you want to delete it you can. Although I would have hoped it would have never happened it did and it was certainly within his right to do so.

For future reference if anyone does feel like they don't belong, please put it out there and let's discuss. It shouldn't have to come to this point especially on the car forum. I can understand some hurt feelings in OT forums but here we're all supposed to get along (at least somewhat).

Anyway gotta continue our quick vacation so when I get back we can discuss some more.
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By Scott at Team Harco
#58959
Fernando - I wouldn't sweat it. I can see where you might take this personally. You shouldn't. You have built a great place, for a bunch of nuts to get together and share experiences. Part of that, is different opinions and different perspectives. Learning how to accept, and filter as needed, are all part of life.

Regarding the recently departed: my view is that if you are that soft, you may have a difficult time in the real world. None of us get out alive. How one handles it, defines one's character.
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By amdavid
#58961
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:50 pm Fernando - I wouldn't sweat it. I can see where you might take this personally. You shouldn't. You have built a great place, for a bunch of nuts to get together and share experiences. Part of that, is different opinions and different perspectives. Learning how to accept, and filter as needed, are all part of life.

Regarding the recently departed: my view is that if you are that soft, you may have a difficult time in the real world. None of us get out alive. How one handles it, defines one's character.
Bummer to see anyone go considering how the OR came about. He seemed like a good contributor on the 928 side. Geez, I thought you 928 folks stuck together through the trials and tribes....fkin hug and make up, or whatever.

Good words Scott, agreed!
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By SeanR
#58962
amdavid wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:07 pm
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:50 pm Fernando - I wouldn't sweat it. I can see where you might take this personally. You shouldn't. You have built a great place, for a bunch of nuts to get together and share experiences. Part of that, is different opinions and different perspectives. Learning how to accept, and filter as needed, are all part of life.

Regarding the recently departed: my view is that if you are that soft, you may have a difficult time in the real world. None of us get out alive. How one handles it, defines one's character.
Bummer to see anyone go considering how the OR came about. He seemed like a good contributor on the 928 side. Geez, I thought you 928 folks stuck together through the trials and tribes....fkin hug and make up, or whatever.

Good words Scott, agreed!
There's more drama in the 928 community than a ladies bridge club.
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By worf
#58963
SeanR wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:10 pm There's more drama in the 928 community than a ladies bridge club.
But, less than in the 944 community. :hiding: :tongue:
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By worf
#58964
Hey, what’s up with those emoticons?
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By Scott at Team Harco
#58966
worf wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:13 pm
SeanR wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:10 pm There's more drama in the 928 community than a ladies bridge club.
But, less than in the 944 community. :hiding: :tongue:
There are about five of us in the 944 community, that are here. That's why I have to come over here and stir things up... :thumbup:
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By Scott at Team Harco
#59002
worf wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:37 am
maddog2020 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:41 pm he was really argumentative. you could tell from the pics that the wheels weren't going to fit.
From pictures? Seriously?

From what I recall he was perturbed that the wheels were not exactly what he ordered. And that ...

maddog2020 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:41 pm It sucks and I've been there. It doesn't help that the wheel company has changed hands more than a few times and don't even know what they have. I've talked to one of the owners and he is nice, but clueless about wheels, and what they have or what they make as another company (Kodiak) makes them.
... is perfectly fine. What I found curious was how he went from getting the wheels to about four hours later picking up his marbles, scrubbing-out the playing field and going home. As far as I can see he never mounted the wheels nor did he engage with either Fikse/Kodiak or 928 Specialists to see if they could affect a correction to his satisfaction.
I agree with maddog on this. The wheels were beautiful - but it was obvious there were going to be fitment issues. There was too much offset. By how much, would only be known by trial fitment or proper measurement of the offset.

I tried to describe how offset is measured but I was told, by our departed friend, that I was wrong. At that point, I will admit, I was a little curt in my reply. The fact is, I was actually paid a handsome salary to be a wheel and tire engineer for an auto manufacturer. Some of the things one learns in such a role, also translate to the real world.

Even beyond that, my racing and rally activities have taught me more than I ever learned at my paying job. At a point in the early 90s, I obtained my own tire mounting equipment. With hundreds of my own tires, ranging from slicks to rally tires, it turned out to be a great investment. I quickly branched out to help my friends, and fellow competitors, by becoming a 'hobby dealer' of Hakkapeliitta winter tires. I still offer sales, service, and advice to my local group or friends, family and competitors. My brand offerings have also expanded well beyond winter tires.

Anyway - the point I am making, in all of this - I know what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to wheels and tires. If I am told I am wrong, I will assess that claim. In this case, there was no call to reassess my comments. I even wished him; 'best of luck'. If I didn't really mean it, I might have told him to GFY.
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By maddog2020
#59027
worf wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:37 am
maddog2020 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:41 pm he was really argumentative. you could tell from the pics that the wheels weren't going to fit.
From pictures? Seriously?

From what I recall he was perturbed that the wheels were not exactly what he ordered. And that ...

maddog2020 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:41 pm It sucks and I've been there. It doesn't help that the wheel company has changed hands more than a few times and don't even know what they have. I've talked to one of the owners and he is nice, but clueless about wheels, and what they have or what they make as another company (Kodiak) makes them.
... is perfectly fine. What I found curious was how he went from getting the wheels to about four hours later picking up his marbles, scrubbing-out the playing field and going home. As far as I can see he never mounted the wheels nor did he engage with either Fikse/Kodiak or 928 Specialists to see if they could affect a correction to his satisfaction.
He did communicate with Fikse as well as 928 Specialists and what he ordered and what he received was not the same. He may have been convinced by one of them that they would fit. Scott and I both tried to help him explaining how to get to the offset, and he was measuring the wheels wrong. We even tried to help him before he even ordered the wheels back in November.
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By fpena944
#59051
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:50 pm Fernando - I wouldn't sweat it. I can see where you might take this personally. You shouldn't. You have built a great place, for a bunch of nuts to get together and share experiences. Part of that, is different opinions and different perspectives. Learning how to accept, and filter as needed, are all part of life.

Regarding the recently departed: my view is that if you are that soft, you may have a difficult time in the real world. None of us get out alive. How one handles it, defines one's character.
Appreciate that. Yeah I know it's nothing personal but just the deletion of content seems like he was *really* upset before leaving. I just didn't think we had that kind of animosity taking place here.

But I guess we all react in different ways to situations in life. I'll clean up what I can when I get back home. Apologies for the mess in the mean time.
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By SeanR
#59055
fpena944 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:41 pm
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:50 pm Fernando - I wouldn't sweat it. I can see where you might take this personally. You shouldn't. You have built a great place, for a bunch of nuts to get together and share experiences. Part of that, is different opinions and different perspectives. Learning how to accept, and filter as needed, are all part of life.

Regarding the recently departed: my view is that if you are that soft, you may have a difficult time in the real world. None of us get out alive. How one handles it, defines one's character.
Appreciate that. Yeah I know it's nothing personal but just the deletion of content seems like he was *really* upset before leaving. I just didn't think we had that kind of animosity taking place here.

But I guess we all react in different ways to situations in life. I'll clean up what I can when I get back home. Apologies for the mess in the mean time.
Like I said in PM, this sort of thing is going to happen and I agree with you that if someone wants to throw a tantrum and take their ball home, just delete their posts so the "deleted" posts are gone leaving the threads that have some content. I quite understand why some would want contributions eliminated from a forum, a forum where we are the product and they are making money off that content. For me, I'd rather have a total elimination of that person than a bunch of deleted messages that provide zero content that say "deleted". Then again I tend to lean towards Gretch's process of just get the drama out of your life and leave those you have a slight bit of respect for. It seems that this guy Shifted contributed and had a good many discussions going on and then decided that he didn't like what he had done so, and wanted to disappear. The reasons are sorta important, could have been a drunken/pissed off episode and he may regret it and if that is the case, restore the posts. If it was due to instability for differing opinions and an immature tantrum (my guess) then just weed the cancer and forget about it.

He was last here at 7:02pm on 2-12-21 so we can see if he logs back in, and the mods can see if the IP has come back to read the open forums after logging out.
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By worf
#59079
maddog2020 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:19 am yep I could tell by the pics. Unfortunately I'm intimately familiar with Fikse FM10 wheels and their fitment on a 928. The only way they fit is with a 1 inch outer lip, and because of the way the wheel center mounts its virtually flat.
If you're talking about the fronts then yeah, I'll give you that from the pictures independent of knowledge of the front widths but with knowledge of Fikse/Kodiak construction and 928s. There's little wiggle room on the front as far as sticking out is concerned.

Not the rears though. Not, *just* from pics. Now, if you already know the rear widths to the half-inch then maybe.

maddog2020 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:19 am So when you have the 2 inch lip, no way no how are they going to fit.
My rear Fikses have a two inch outer barrel.

My GTS rears have a 3 inch outer barrel (not Fikses though.)

So: pppttthppphhht! :)

And that barely fits. Event then the tires stick out past the fender.
On the front yes. An 18x9 ET 63 will stick out by several millimeters.

But, if you're going to run 9" fronts you basically don't have a choice about 'sticking out.' If you increase the offset sufficiently to get the wheel even with the fenders you'll have considerable rubbing on the lower sill before you get full steering lock. And this assumes that with an 18" the suspension members don't interfere before does the lower sill.

Now, my front Fikses to stick out a couple of MMs, but I'm running 9" Et 68.5 (from back in the day when Fikse could do that.) A bespoke front ride height is critical to preventing rubbing on the lower sill.

Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:51 pm I agree with maddog on this. The wheels were beautiful - but it was obvious there were going to be fitment issues.
Note that, initially, I was not arguing that the fronts or rears might not have "fit". I was arguing that from just pictures and without knowledge of widths and offsets that it is rather cheeky to declare that they won't fit on a 928.

Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:51 pm There was too much offset. By how much, would only be known by trial fitment or proper measurement of the offset.
Assuming you have not "textually" swapped negative offset for positive offset...

From reading your post to our dearly departed I believe that you are arguing a point opposite of maddog if you refer to the front. You argue that the offset should be decreased - from 63 to say 50 - which would push the outer rim further away from the hub face and thus make it fit even less well than maddog thinks it will.

Note that Et 68 is not "too much offset" on a front 9" front wheel for a 928 so 63 isn't too much either. It's not enough offset actually. Arguably there is no correct 928 offset for a 9" front wheel if you want both no rubbing under any circumstances and no sticking out.

On a 928 S4 stuffing an 10.5" in the rear is a study in controlling offset to the MM. A 10.5 Et 54 on a 295 is pretty much the sweet spot. Decreasing offset further will result in pushing the tires through the rear fenders since the tire is above the fender level at stock(-ish) ride heights. Increasing the offset by a couple of mm will result in suspension members hitting the inner barrel. Tire choice between 275, 285, 295 also becomes critical depending upon offset. With a GT you've got roughly another 3/8" of wiggle room. And lots of folks 'roll' S4 fenders to get some more room. A GTS has about 1.5" more room outboard than an S4. The good news is that on the rear the critical suspension members don't move relative to the wheel(*) so the only thing you have worry about with cunt-hair clearance is wheel deformation under load.

(*) The upper dog bone moves but the lower control arm is the critical member.

In any case 10.5 ET 57 is not obviously too much offset and the difference between ET 54, 57, 63 (etc.) is not something you can gauge from a picture of an unmounted rear wheel.

Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:51 pm Anyway - the point I am making, in all of this - I know what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to wheels and tires.
Note that, above, I do not cast aspersions on your general level of knowledge. I do not claim to have your level of "general knowledge" but I do know something of 928s and what rubs and doesn't rub and what I have mounted on my three 928s.

I do, however, cast aspersions on both you and maddog with respect to your ability to measure offsets to the millimeter with your mark one eyeballs especially from pictures on the interwebs. :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
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By worf
#59080
worf wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:53 pm The good news is that on the rear the critical suspension members don't move relative to the wheel(*) so the only thing you have worry about with cunt-hair clearance is wheel deformation under load.

(*) The upper dog bone moves but the lower control arm is the critical member.
That's wrong --^

The rear lower control arm does move relative to the wheel. But, it's small and calculable.
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By Scott at Team Harco
#59141
No worries. My impression of the wheel photos looked to me, that there was too much offset, in general. This would be most notable at the rear. I did not state, nor did I have conclusive proof of this. It was clearly stated that a trial fitment should be the first step.

If I had the wheel specs for that model year 928, I would be able to calculate how much change the new wheels would make. But I would still have to have the offset numbers of the new wheels to perform this calculation. Even with that, I wouldn't know for sure if there would not be other issues. Again, a trial fit, is the first step.

It's sad that our friend was unable to work through this. I didn't see anything from those that commented on his situation that warranted his action. There were many helpful comments. The fact they were not taken in the spirit intended is unfortunate.
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By maddog2020
#59196
worf wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:02 pm
worf wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:53 pm The good news is that on the rear the critical suspension members don't move relative to the wheel(*) so the only thing you have worry about with cunt-hair clearance is wheel deformation under load.

(*) The upper dog bone moves but the lower control arm is the critical member.
That's wrong --^

The rear lower control arm does move relative to the wheel. But, it's small and calculable.
The rear lower control arm moves outward as the hub moves downward. my 18x12's rub on the lower control arm when the car is off the ground. I put the wheels on, but don't torque them down until on the ground. there is about 1/4 inch clearance when the car is on the ground with no rubbing.

I learned alot about the 928 suspension travel when I cut the bottom off a shock and bolted the suspension up front and rear, and articulated the suspension from a full hang upwards to a full bottom out.

I do plan on shaving the lower control arms in the back where the tire rubs.

The reason the Fikse wheels look so good is because the depth and the curves. Due to the design there are limitations on the offset. Also due to the 3 piece design one of the challenges is the valve stem. it barely has enough room to mount on the thinnest 1 inch outer lip required for the 928.
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By fpena944
#59578
Just spent quite a bit of time unlocking all of the threads and adding their titles back in.

Shifted's content is still gone as I had promised that you all own your content from the beginning but this scorched Earth approach really feels like the nuclear option if you're unhappy with something. I still don't get it but it's done and now we have some strange holes in the conversation but we'll manage and continue to press forward.

If you do see anything still locked or with the title of "deleted" let me know and I'll go and fix it. It was tempting to pull up my backups and just restore everything but I'm sticking to my initial promise.

If Shifted is reading this, I would love to know what we did wrong here that prompted this action. It's not something that was done on a whim as it takes some time to do what he did. Wish we could have figured it out before it got to this point.
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By Landseer
#61108
I've met Shifted (and his dad, also a 928 owner). Did a convoy with them, had meals with them on the road. Been to their garage. Good people. Brilliant, sincere, generous, principled. Have not spoken with him in a while.

Wish he hadn't taken up his content. Not cool. He puts so much effort into the projects and posts.

Maybe we just give some space.
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By maddog2020
#61123
Here is a pic of the wheels that started what ever happened.

Image
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By Scott at Team Harco
#61124
Right. So that wheel closest to the camera looks to have a metric shit-ton* of offset. If that will fit properly on a RWD car - I would be amazed.


* The well known industry standard of measure.
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By fpena944
#61247
Landseer wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:32 am I've met Shifted (and his dad, also a 928 owner). Did a convoy with them, had meals with them on the road. Been to their garage. Good people. Brilliant, sincere, generous, principled. Have not spoken with him in a while.

Wish he hadn't taken up his content. Not cool. He puts so much effort into the projects and posts.

Maybe we just give some space.
I exchanged a couple of emails with Shifted after he left and although I don't agree with his deletion of content I respect his reasons. He's not banned or anything so if he ever wants to return he's welcome to do so, I just hope the same is not repeated again.

Unfortunately we can't be everything to everyone but I do hope you all will speak up for yourselves or send me a private message if you ever feel that this place isn't turning out you expected it to. I know we talked about a lot of additional features but I'm trying to create an overall roadmap and figure out what our niche is going to be before spending a tremendous amount of time creating features that won't be utilized.
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By Scott at Team Harco
#61259
I hope he finds it within himself to return. There was no malicious intent, from what I could see.

This is a community. Understanding this, and dealing with it, is all part of life. Learning to filter, or ignore, are important things to have in the toolbox of life. Equally important, is the ability to stand and support your case. I hope he gets back to the community. :beerchug:
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By worf
#61267
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:44 am Right. So that wheel closest to the camera looks to have a metric shit-ton* of offset. If that will fit properly on a RWD car - I would be amazed.
It won't fit on a Corvette.

Please describe *specifically* (which corner and the exact issue) why you don't think it will fit on a 928.
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By Scott at Team Harco
#61270
worf wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:27 pm
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:44 am Right. So that wheel closest to the camera looks to have a metric shit-ton* of offset. If that will fit properly on a RWD car - I would be amazed.
It won't fit on a Corvette.

Please describe *specifically* (which corner and the exact issue) why you don't think it will fit on a 928.
Educate me. That looks to be narrower than the wheels to the right. Therefore I will assume it is a front wheel. What is the standard wheel size for the model in question? What is the offset? Since our friend has departed, we don't have the specs for the wheels he was dealing with. Let's assume they were something on the order of 9.5 front and 10.5 or 11 rear. Do you have a number for the proper offset for a 9.5 front?

Bring it.
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By worf
#61336
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:37 pm Educate me.
That's not an answer to my question.

And, in any case, I already attempted to provide some facts here: ( worf @ Oh, no! )

Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:37 pm Do you have a number for the proper offset for a 9.5 front?
The fact that you ask that question is prima facie evidence that you didn't read my post above.

Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:37 pm Bring it.
I did. Already. You either didn't read it or disbelieved it.

Nevertheless, I will answer your *new* questions.

The Porsche factory made a short run of 17" 928 Cup wheels for use in the aborted 928 racing series. These wheels were 17x9.5 ET 68. Now... based upon my own experience with my Fikse 17x9 ET 68.5 front wheels, these 9.5 wheels would - I suspect - need two stop bushings on each steering arm (rather than the single stop used otherwise) to limit full-lock angle. But, a reduced turning circle would hardly be an issue for a race car. Otherwise they'd have no fitment issue.

These same wheels would have used on the rear with a bolt-on spacer. And most likely the 17 mm spacer already used on previous 928s as part of the 'wide track' option code. However, they would have fit without the spacer.

These wheels are still available from Porsche for about $1500 each.

The '88 SE, '88 CS and '89 GT shipped with 16x8 ET 60 and 16x9 ET 60. For the rears the 17mm 'wide track' spacer was standard.
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By Fox_
#61349
Since we're talking about wheels.

What *is* the best option that's not bespoke, works, has a reasonable tire selection, and doesn't cost a fortune?

The S4 flat disks I have were chrome plated before I bought it, ran into a metallurgist later that said "Yeah, that'll never work". As far as my research goes they're effectively ruined and can't be redone.
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By worf
#61356
Fox_ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:56 pm What *is* the best option that's not bespoke, works, has a reasonable tire selection, and doesn't cost a fortune?
Can of worms that.

The stock GTS size wheels: 17x7.5 and 17x9 have 30+ tire models available at tire rack (225/45 and 255/40.)

So, if you can find a set of GTS wheels cheap, that might be the easiest way to go.

Tire rack actually has three models of street tires available right now in the 16" OE sizes.

I just got a call from one of my 928 clients that indicates that I *might* be able to hook you up with a set of (not-chromed and ruined) man holes with tires. Have to call him back tomorrow and see what's what.
User avatar
By Fox_
#61366
worf wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:17 pm
Fox_ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:56 pm What *is* the best option that's not bespoke, works, has a reasonable tire selection, and doesn't cost a fortune?
Can of worms that.

The stock GTS size wheels: 17x7.5 and 17x9 have 30+ tire models available at tire rack (225/45 and 255/40.)

So, if you can find a set of GTS wheels cheap, that might be the easiest way to go.

Tire rack actually has three models of street tires available right now in the 16" OE sizes.

I just got a call from one of my 928 clients that indicates that I *might* be able to hook you up with a set of (not-chromed and ruined) man holes with tires. Have to call him back tomorrow and see what's what.
I've got a matching set of Toyo proxies that were brand new 4 years and <10K miles ago. :roflmao: Only set available at the time.

Timing belt/water pump job puts a damper on spending money on the car, but I won't pass up a deal.

I like the clubsport/D90 & C2 Turbo style wheels the best, but in current economic conditions $$$ is king with cosmetics.
User avatar
By worf
#61373
Fox_ wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:08 pm I like the clubsport/D90 & C2 Turbo style wheels the best, but in current economic conditions $$$ is king with cosmetics.
There's club sports which will run a ton of money unless they are beaten to Hell. That is if you want 928 club sports and not the dime-a-dozen 944 sizes.

D90s can be had for probably 1/2 the cost of similar condition CS wheels.

"C2 Turbo" wheels are more-or-less the GTS wheels no?

In any case, let me know if you are interested in another set of man holes.
User avatar
By Scott at Team Harco
#61421
worf wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:36 pm
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:37 pm Educate me.
That's not an answer to my question.

And, in any case, I already attempted to provide some facts here: ( worf @ Oh, no! )

Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:37 pm Do you have a number for the proper offset for a 9.5 front?
The fact that you ask that question is prima facie evidence that you didn't read my post above.

Scott at Team Harco wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:37 pm Bring it.
I did. Already. You either didn't read it or disbelieved it.

Nevertheless, I will answer your *new* questions.

The Porsche factory made a short run of 17" 928 Cup wheels for use in the aborted 928 racing series. These wheels were 17x9.5 ET 68. Now... based upon my own experience with my Fikse 17x9 ET 68.5 front wheels, these 9.5 wheels would - I suspect - need two stop bushings on each steering arm (rather than the single stop used otherwise) to limit full-lock angle. But, a reduced turning circle would hardly be an issue for a race car. Otherwise they'd have no fitment issue.

These same wheels would have used on the rear with a bolt-on spacer. And most likely the 17 mm spacer already used on previous 928s as part of the 'wide track' option code. However, they would have fit without the spacer.

These wheels are still available from Porsche for about $1500 each.

The '88 SE, '88 CS and '89 GT shipped with 16x8 ET 60 and 16x9 ET 60. For the rears the 17mm 'wide track' spacer was standard.
Good information. I initially skimmed over the previous post you referenced. My mistake.

This all started from an opinion. An opinion, that the wheels in the photo appeared to have a lot of offset. If I were to estimate the offset of the wheel closest to the camera (we can agree, it's a front), I would say it is greater than 70mm. I have no way of knowing if that is accurate. It is also possible, the camera angle is not showing additional mounting pad material at the hub interface. If that is the case, then the offset would likely be closer to 60 - 65 mm. Again, all estimates based on one photo.

The only way to clear this up, is for the owner of the wheels to try them on his car and then report the findings. Since he has left the building, we may never know for sure.

So to put a number on this - which I never claimed to have - if the offset of that particular wheel is at or near 65 mm, it should fit. Based on your information that 68.5 is close to the maximum for a 9.5 front, it follows that if the offset is 70 mm or more, then there will likely be a fitment issue.

Sorry if it seems we are beating a dead horse. This could easily have been worked through if the guy that started this, hadn't performed a scorched-earth retreat. We were trying to help him understand how to determine offset. I offered information on measuring rim width and then determining offset. He effectively told me I was wrong and didn't know what I was talking about. He then took his ball and went home.

For reference:
Image
User avatar
By worf
#61473
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:41 am For reference:
Image
That chart is basically wrong for wheel size after ‘86. I don’t know from which website’s sphincter it was expelled but don’t trust that site for 928 information ever again.

If you want correct information go here: http://www.928gt.com/t-928wheel.aspx

I’ve been working-on, diagnosing when no one else could, repairing, and restoring 928s - and only 928s - for clients for almost 25 years. I have 5 in my shop right now. I won’t claim to know much of anything about any other car. And I don’t know everything about 928s. But keep that first sentence in mind next time you tell me “bring it” in the context of a 928.
User avatar
By Scott at Team Harco
#61483
That chart was from Porsche. They had tables for 'approved' tires for their vehicles. I can't find it now, on the current site. They still have the parts catalogs for older vehicles, but they seem to be pushing wheels and tires for only the current offerings.

Your chart has, on the very first line, a mistake. 216 is not a real section width. So it's a simple typo. Otherwise, it looks to be good information

I'm not sure I if I hit a nerve with you - but you seem to be taking this pretty hard. Your experience and knowledge of 928s far exceed any that I have.

Are opinions no longer allowed? That's where this all started.
User avatar
By worf
#61487
Scott at Team Harco wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:41 am This all started from an opinion. An opinion, that the wheels in the photo appeared to have a lot of offset.
You continue to miss my point. I take issue, not with your observation, but with the assumption you don’t even know you hold.

Your observation is correct: the wheels have a lot of offset relative to all the other front wheels in the universe.

However, it is your *assumption* - that “a lot of offset” means it won’t fit on the front of a 928 - which is demonstrably incorrect.

Everybody that knows something about cars thinks what they know applies to 928s. Well, it doesn’t. Not always.

You need to check your assumptions at 928 forum door or you will have a lot of rubbing and alignment issues.
User avatar
By Scott at Team Harco
#61490
I don't recall saying the wheels will not fit. If I did, it was a mistake as you are pointing out. I did suggest that too much offset, would very likely cause a fitment issue. Do you see a flaw in this? Too much, is just that; too much.

Do we know for certain the wheels, that were in that photo, fit or do not fit? Until there is confirmation, one way or the other, this is all speculation.
User avatar
By maddog2020
#61516
I said they wont fit and I'll stand behind that statement 100%. I'm on my second set of fikse wheels on my 928. They don't make the thinner centers anymore. If I fubar a center, then I've got bigger problems. Fikse wheels have always stuck out a little. As in you can see the tire sticking out past the fender. Go to any 928 event with fikse wheels and look at the front. you will see this on every 928. The problem is how they make the wheels and the limits based on the original design.

I'm actually doing the billet 944 hubs and machines spindles to get a better fit and also open up more options in the future.

Back when there were no other fitments available it was common to see someone who had installed the S4 rear wheels and tires on the front by mistake. no clearance issues but close.
User avatar
By worf
#61533
maddog2020 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:59 pm I said they wont fit and I'll stand behind that statement 100%.
Yeah. Two differences though: you weren’t arguing about “too much offset” (the reverse actually, because you know 928 requirements) and you actually provided a cogent response to my question of how you were able to determine why they wouldn’t fit (well) from just looking at the pictures without knowing anything about the sizes.

Also, don’t die on that Fikse hill just yet. There’s stuff in motion once the snow melts a bit. I need a new center too.
User avatar
By maddog2020
#61592
if anyone is going to die on the Fikse hill it will be me. I had my rear quarters cut off and then put GTS quarters and had them widened even more so I could get 335's on the back. Knowing what I know now, I probably would have had them do the fronts wider as well. The shorter spindle & hubs will work for me (as well as shorter rotor hats)
I can't believe I did that!

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