Welcome all 928 forum refugees!
User avatar
By Shifted
#11952
What are the rules for posting items and services for sale?

Are there any restrictions on posting links to other sites?

Would it be worthwhile to create a series of posts that address specific common topics? Even if they start out empty. That would provide starting points for people who are looking for information or help. It would also facilitate the creation of a sticky topic that has links to the threads considered appropriate, grouped by category.
User avatar
By fpena944
#11962
Shifted wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:16 am What are the rules for posting items and services for sale?

Are there any restrictions on posting links to other sites?

Would it be worthwhile to create a series of posts that address specific common topics? Even if they start out empty. That would provide starting points for people who are looking for information or help. It would also facilitate the creation of a sticky topic that has links to the threads considered appropriate, grouped by category.
No issues posting links or items for sale. Now if you own a business and are continually spamming the forum with ads, let's talk about a mutually beneficial agreement. But other than that no restrictions.

For the series of posts, I'm good with that but just wanted to let you know that I am creating a technical archive section outside of the forums. So we can start it all here but once something is well defined and should be used for reference going forward, let's go ahead and add it to the new section that should be operational soon.

Let me know if any questions!
User avatar
By linderpat
#11964
I'm in favor of open posting on for sale and the like, so long as the spammers are kept out. Same goes for cross-linking. So the big question is how to regulate out spammers? Just use the community standard thing like we do in the off topic sections? Reputation? I think to a large extent we are making up the rules here as we go. I did like the rennlist model of needing to be a paid subscriber before anything could be sold, as it keeps out the spammers (skin in the game is a great deterrent). I also like the posting of a price being mandatory. Keeps the site from turning into a bid site. There is a Swap Meet forum. Maybe limit for sale items to there?


EDIT: I see Fernando posted at the same time.
User avatar
By fpena944
#11971
linderpat wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:36 am I'm in favor of open posting on for sale and the like, so long as the spammers are kept out. Same goes for cross-linking. So the big question is how to regulate out spammers? Just use the community standard thing like we do in the off topic sections? Reputation? I think to a large extent we are making up the rules here as we go. I did like the rennlist model of needing to be a paid subscriber before anything could be sold, as it keeps out the spammers (skin in the game is a great deterrent). I also like the posting of a price being mandatory. Keeps the site from turning into a bid site. There is a Swap Meet forum. Maybe limit for sale items to there?


EDIT: I see Fernando posted at the same time.
With the additional platform I'm adding for technical archives I can actually create a classified ad feature. That might be the ideal way. So for now we can probably list on the forums but then I'll build out the new functionality that can help to create real classifieds.
User avatar
By Shifted
#11974
Great news about the technical archives. It will be a lot of work, but if you can pull it off in the long term it would be awesome. Thread based information that is linked to from a central point is easier to maintain and I've seen it work well on other forums. But, results matter. However you achieve them will be just fine by me!


With respect to advertising...I have a few points that I would like to offer for consideration:

1) There are individuals who produce items that others would like to know about and buy. Hans comes to mind. I think that these people should be allowed to post what they have without having to be a "sponsor" because it greatly benefits the rest of us. They aren't making a living off of it, just sharing their efforts.

2) For those that make a full time living selling products/services, I think that requiring them to be forum sponsors in order to offer their products/services for sale on the forum is appropriate. I think that a pricing model could be used that allows them a specific number of new threads per time period based on their sponsor level. And allowed to offer their products/services as solutions in other threads that they don't start, with a limit per time period based on their sponsor level. They should be allowed to answer questions about their products without restriction. That would let all product/service providers, regardless of their size or means, to participate in the sales game without feeling like they're trying to skirt the rules or unable to advertise because it's cost prohibitive.

3) As a consumer of products and services, I would like to know who to go to for what. And where they are physically located. I would think that this is even more true for new owners. And, I don't want to be limited to just who has paid for a sponsorship on the forum. This seems like something that should be based on the input of forum users. Maybe it gets shunted off into the same realm as the technical repository, but I would love to see a list of where I can go for products (both OEM parts and aftermarket alternatives/upgrades) and services. And since I'm dreaming, it would be ideal if each of those entries allowed a "like" or "thumbs up" or equivalent vote. Not a rating, just a simple single vote "up". And only forum members with X number of posts, or a paid subscription, can vote. That way if someone nefarious makes the list, they will get few "up" votes right next to a provider getting a lot of "up" votes.


Yes, it's easy to create work for others with blue sky ideas :)

Even if you did nothing else to improve things on the forum, it's already much better than I could have hoped for.

I'm not yet become a paid member, but I'll do so tomorrow. I appreciate all that's being done to get this off of the ground.
User avatar
By worf
#12113
Shifted wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:00 am 2) For those that make a full time living selling products/services, I think that requiring them to be forum sponsors in order to offer their products/services for sale on the forum is appropriate.
Sean and I (to a materially lesser extent) fall into this category.

For me, I never used Rennlist to "advertise" my "business." I did however, not obscure the fact that I work on other people's 928s for money. I did, however, make non-trivial effort to contribute to the value of the 928 forum. I saw that contribution as my "payment" for not "hiding" that I worked on 928s for money. I received some referrals directly as a result of folks seeing me on Rennlist. I received more referrals indirectly: my clients on Rennlist referring folks to me that had posted "where's a good mechanic" on Rennlist without any prior search on Rennlist. The majority of my referrals do not come through Rennlist though. They originate with our Big 3 Parts Suppliers.

Rennlist's rules (i.e. expense out of proportion to revenue) for "small business" drove away a lot of small business (like Nicole's hobby 928 business.) IB's rules on the Corvette forum are far more draconian (or at least they used to be) wherein any references whatsoever to any non-sponsor business were subject to removal at a whim (where whims usually originated with sponsors.)

I don't need more business and thus "advertising" in order to attract business is not on my priority list. I would certainly be willing to contribute somewhat more than a 'standard' member with the rule that my behavior is more-or-less the same: no "real" advertising and no obvious troll posts ("Just bring it to me") in response to technical questions.

It's hard to figure out at what point a "business" should be contributing more to the forum. Even a simple revenue-proportional model doesn't align with the value on the business side without click metrics. I have no interest in expending my limited one-man-shop time on figuring out what a 'click' on a banner ad is worth to me.

On the other hand, I am also willing to *invest* in this forum under conditions that make sense.
User avatar
By Shifted
#12139
In my mind, with my limited and selfish perspective, if you're not starting a new thread to say "I will work on your car for money, contact me for more details and pricing", or posting in a thread where someone else needs help by saying "I want you to pay me to work on your car for you", then you're not advertising your services. Being open about what you do for work is not advertising, it's just sharing and being transparent. If someone approaches you and requests your services, that's not you advertising.

So, to my way of thinking, since you don't advertise, you don't need to pay to be a sponsor.

And I agree with you that your technical contribution far outweighs any possible advertising value that you might derive from being on the board. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was casting a wide net.

I would expect that someone (probably a lot of people) would request that you and Sean be added to my proposed list of service providers, and that you would receive a lot of "votes". Validating that the forum users not only know what you do for work, but recommend that others use your services. Without you having requested or paid for the acknowledgement.

Please remember that my thoughts on this subject are just a personal perspective. Not a line in the sand or a hill to die on. Just points for consideration. If they are discounted or even dismissed out of hand, I won't be in the least offended. And while I know that these concepts are operationally and technically possible due to my own areas of expertise, I'm not driving this ship. I'm not even a deckhand. In fact, at the moment, I'm a stowaway. So, I'll just happily ride along to wherever we're going :)
User avatar
By SeanR
#12144
I think there is a huge difference between members who contribute stuff to the site like tech, for free who just happen to do this for a living. and those vendors who the only things they ever post are "hey, look at what we are selling this week" and contribute nothing of value.

I suppose if/when we get to the point of having sponsors and vendors spamming the forums with products/services then it may become an issue. Like Worf, all mine is word of mouth. I've been contacted by the DFW PCA region asking why I don't want to advertise in their monthly rag and my comments always the same. I don't need to. I do sponsor 928 Events and get a nifty graphic on the back of the shirts.

I did get a couple of mugs from my local Cigar Shop and they made these for me. Got me thinking I could sell a few of them.
image.png
image.png
image.png
User avatar
By Shifted
#12149
I hear you and agree.


Those mugs look pretty slick. I don't drink coffee, but I do like to add to my wife's collection. If you sell them, drop me a line and I'll buy one.

So, which one of us advertised? You, for having the mugs, or me for wanting to buy one?
User avatar
By SeanR
#12155
Shit, looks like we need to pony up some vendor fees :lol:
Shifted wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:18 pm I hear you and agree.


Those mugs look pretty slick. I don't drink coffee, but I do like to add to my wife's collection. If you sell them, drop me a line and I'll buy one.

So, which one of us advertised? You, for having the mugs, or me for wanting to buy one?
Shifted liked this
User avatar
By fpena944
#12173
Sneak peek on what I've been working on for storing content:

pages/articles-home/

Only go to the 928 section as all the others are still under construction. (in case you don't recognize, it's the V-8 engine photo)

There you'll see two articles I borrowed from Dwayne's Garage.

Again this is just a framework, but gives you an idea of how the first version will look and the basic functionality.
User avatar
By worf
#12181
Shifted wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:02 pm I'm sorry if it seemed like I was casting a wide net.

Please remember that my thoughts on this subject are just a personal perspective. Not a line in the sand or a hill to die on. Just points for consideration. If they are discounted or even dismissed out of hand, I won't be in the least offended. And
No worries mate. I didn't get piqued by your post. I did though want to point out the "plight" of some folks that offer services that are "too small" to get value from "sponsoring" a forum for non-trivial values of "sponsor."

I agree with @SeanR that SponserTrolls are irritating. The new-model forums on Rennlist are replete with those. The Turbo forum being the worst where every fly-by-night wheel company wants to sell a Turbo owner a $7k set of 22" wheels (blech.) Exhausts too.
User avatar
By worf
#12185
fpena944 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:25 pm Sneak peek on what I've been working on for storing content:

pages/articles-home/

...

There you'll see two articles I borrowed from Dwayne's Garage.
So, looks like - where the bits hit the spinny magnetic thing - it's "forum post" "vb-tagged" content with comment capability at the bottom. One might argue it's a stumpy form of Atlassian's Confluence application. One difference - perhaps - is that Confluence has a built-in PDF viewer that lets you page through right on the post screen.

All my tech docs start in FrameMaker end up in PDF format landscape pages to provide one format that works well on screen or on paper.

Example:
http://members.rennlist.com/worf928/928 ... ection.pdf

I'm happy to post extracted hi-res JPEGs of each page along with a Jefe's-server URL for PDF download.

I'm not super interested in reformatting for pure "forum" content. It' prints like crap and looses many features.

Thoughts?
User avatar
By fpena944
#12201
worf wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:54 pm
fpena944 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:25 pm Sneak peek on what I've been working on for storing content:

pages/articles-home/

...

There you'll see two articles I borrowed from Dwayne's Garage.
So, looks like - where the bits hit the spinny magnetic thing - it's "forum post" "vb-tagged" content with comment capability at the bottom. One might argue it's a stumpy form of Atlassian's Confluence application. One difference - perhaps - is that Confluence has a built-in PDF viewer that lets you page through right on the post screen.

All my tech docs start in FrameMaker end up in PDF format landscape pages to provide one format that works well on screen or on paper.

Example:
http://members.rennlist.com/worf928/928 ... ection.pdf

I'm happy to post extracted hi-res JPEGs of each page along with a Jefe's-server URL for PDF download.

I'm not super interested in reformatting for pure "forum" content. It' prints like crap and looses many features.

Thoughts?
That's exactly what I'm trying to get at - portable content that can easily be transferred via PDF and archived as needed.

I didn't add the PDF generator yet but it's coming.

Nice post you shared there!

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