8 cylinder front engine iconic vehicle
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By worf
#12374
Ok. Here's one. Bizarre enough that I thought a video was needed to be convincing.

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By worf
#12420
Shifted wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:27 am:shock: why
Why would you leave a water bridge bolt three turns from tight?

I quit trying to get into the heads of previous wrenches 10 years ago.
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By Landseer
#12692
Pics at some point later, but why would a guy screw a set of speakers into the deck beneath the hatch?

Anyways, at least we solved the mystery of the gasoline leaks when tank is full.
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By worf
#12776
Landseer wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:36 am Anyways, at least we solved the mystery of the gasoline leaks when tank is full.
Gasoline leaking from stereo is all too common.
Landseer wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:36 am Pics at some point later, but why would a guy screw a set of speakers into the deck beneath the hatch?
See my signature.
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By worf
#12819
Landseer wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:25 pm The all-encompassing signature. Covers a wide range of eventualities, doesnt it!. LoL
As I wrote in the previous:
worf wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:29 am I quit trying to get into the heads of previous wrenches 10 years ago.
I've no doubt that Sean and I could post once per day each on the "head scratching" stuff we've found over the years and not run out of material for a long time.

Last century when I didn't know that my 'retirement job' was going to be restoring 928s, when my actual job was running a startup/growing software business, but people were still dragging 928s to me on flat beds from other shops, I spent time trying to figure out "why did the last guy to this? What did he know that I don't? What was going though his mind when he did this?"

After 10 years, I decided that there was no point do that. I came to the conclusion that, outside of road-side emergency repairs, not doing it 'like the factory' better have damn good reasons that weren't hard to figure out, either through logic and engineering knowledge, or by making a call to folks like Earl, Stan, Greg, etc. Furthermore, I simply came to the conclusion that a majority of folks that wrench on cars for a living simply don't GAF and their primary purpose is to get the car out and assume that they will never, ever see it again.

I should probably amend my signature to lazy > NGAF > stupid > malace.
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By worf
#12957
Shifted wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:00 am Worf thinks that there should be a thread just for his anecdotes (edit: our) anecdotes.
I think you took what I wrote and ran off on a direction I hadn't intended. I even edit the post to attempt to clarify that I wasn't recommending a thread for just your 928's PO's 'tricks' nor just the stupid crap I've found.

I thought it would be a good idea to have a "Stupid PO tricks"thread in which we could all throw our anecdotes.

To that end may I suggest that you edit the thread title so that it's not all about me? :)
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By SeanR
#13034
Roger was joking with him about aftermarket parts, some guy posted a funny pic asking if he should start a thread about tensioners and torque tube bearings and Greg lost his shit. Decided to no longer help on rennlist and all his parts would only be sold through his shop and accused Roger of not paying his bills to him. Which was total bullshit. So Rog just said ok, he'd return all the parts he has in stock and wants a refund. Rog now has to refund several thousand in orders for parts that have been on back order and now I've been tasked with coming up with a fuel line product line.


shaaark89 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:30 am
SeanR wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:04 pm My only advice for today, don't get between Roger and Greg at the next gathering.
yeah so what in the hell happened there???
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By worf
#13067
SeanR wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:02 am Rog now has to refund several thousand in orders for parts that have been on back order and now I've been tasked with coming up with a fuel line product line.
FFS!

That was a bad move on Greg’s part.
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By shaaark89
#13097
worf wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:34 am

FFS!

That was a bad move on Greg’s part.
i'm not surprised honestly. i 've been expecting something like this for a bit now. it's unfortunate for sure.
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By Rdon
#13338
Records that came with my car contained this cryptic entry “GTS baffle installed”.

Genuine Porsche baffle was in fact installed, I know its a genuine part because the installer did not remove the Porsche part number label which, of course, ended up just below the oil pump pickup screen. Notice how the label has taken on the profile of the pickup while causing approx. 60% blockage... Always had normal oil pressure though.

The sheared off screw was an added bonus, none of the holes had been tapped deep enough. Nobody will ever see it, right?


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By worf
#13344
Thanks for putting this thread back on track.
Rdon wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:42 pm The sheared off screw was an added bonus, none of the holes had been tapped deep enough.
Makes perfect sense if you look at my signature. It's way too much work to measure, drill, and use both a starting tap and bottom tap. <roll eyes>
Rdon wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:42 pm Nobody will ever see it, right?
I've decided that that is the 'justification' for a lot of work I see on 928s. As in: fuck it. *I'll* never see this 928 again and if anything happens because I'm too lazy to do it right, I'll just lie, dissemble, or shift blame."

Whereas I assume that every 928 I touch will come back to me and I'll have to warranty any mistakes or past laziness.
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By worf
#13460
Shifted wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:03 pm Thanks. Now I don't feel nearly as bad about the crazy stuff that I find on mine! Fuels into the gas tank? Stickers and sheared screws in the crankcase? Sheesh.
One of the GTs I have here is really irksome. 1/4 the stuff I’ve taken apart can’t go back together without a TimeSert or a thread cleaning tap. I had to throw away all 26 cam cover bolts. 1/4 of the stuff was hand tight when I got to it. It’s like someone turned loose a stoned monkey with an air ratchet set to 15 nm; enough to screw up 6mm bolt holes but not enough to tighten an 8mm bolt.
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By worf
#14177
On the subject of TimeSerts: I think I need to find out if the company that makes them is public and if so, buy stock.
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IMG_2645sc.JPG
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By Landseer
#16080
I feel it is my duty to report that I was forced today to rig up a MAF inlet screen, impromptu.

Smaller stock door speaker screen, inverted, was perfect.
Attachments
No retaining ring required
No retaining ring required
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By worf
#100448
I failed to get a picture of what I'm about to describe. So, yaw'll need to imagine...

In 2007 I did a timing belt on an '87 5-speed conversion.

At the time the intake coating was coming off. Of course it was.

I saw it again today - 13 years later - having passed through two owners. About 5 years ago, the intake was removed and repainted by a shop for owner N -1 (the previous, not current owner) ...

... in a "skin-tone"-ish brown color to match the color of the deteriorating cam covers.

The owner called it the color of "a naked GI-Joe."

No. I am serious.

:lol2:
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By Stepson
#100639
worf wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:23 pm
... in a "skin-tone"-ish brown color to match the color of the deteriorating cam covers.

The owner called it the color of "a naked GI-Joe."
Worf, Do you have something against naked GI-Joes? :roflmao:
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By Geza-aka-Zombo
#106826
Perhaps this is not the right thread, but, who charges $600 for labor to replace a hood pad? Guess.

I was just talking to someone the other day at Frenzy about this - one of my first posts at the 928 forum at the other place was describing to someone how I replaced my hood pad with the hood on the car. I was beat down by Brown and his minions for not taking the time to remove the hood and all the old adhesive. I figured at the time he just didn't have the skill to do it and was charging the customer anyways. Confirmed on both accounts.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987- ... 928-s4-78/

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By worf
#106893
Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:56 pm Perhaps this is not the right thread, but, who charges $600 for labor to replace a hood pad? Guess.
I spend a non-trivial amount of time looking at 928's past service records. And it's always a lot of 'fun' for often-vexing, frustrating values of 'fun.' And I'm not above (in the past at least, but not so much any longer) posting my observations on BaT or forums.

For example the '91GT on BaT now has had two aluminum radiators with the first failing after 6 years. (Not apropos this context but that reinforces my belief that all-aluminum radiators are not a money-saver in 928s in the long run.) Or a 90S4 where the client was charged for coolant. Twice. On the same bill. Or a '90 GT where they charged to replace a single o-ring (only) on the front expansion valve and that one spent the next 6 years, every year, going back to the shop for A/C service of similar "thoroughness."

I'm not sure if I should be indignant about the labor charge for the hood pad.

The devil is always in the details.

Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:56 pm I was just talking to someone the other day at Frenzy about this - one of my first posts at the 928 forum at the other place was describing to someone how I replaced my hood pad with the hood on the car.
How long did it take you? And do you routinely track your time so that you know +/- 5 minutes what it takes you? (As in, humans are extremely bad at 'extemporaneous' time tracking in hindsight.)

Was it a waffle-weave factory pad? Or a smooth one? The former is a lot harder to get perfectly square so that the weave isn't distorted.

Is it sill firmly attached to the hood? After how many years and miles?

Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:56 pm I was beat down by Brown and his minions for not taking the time to remove the hood and all the old adhesive. I figured at the time he just didn't have the skill to do it and was charging the customer anyways. Confirmed on both accounts.
I just checked one of my old service records. I billed 2.5 hours for removing the hood, removing the old adhesive, gluing on the hood pad perfectly straight, and reinstalling the hood and aligning it. It probably took me 3.5 hours because I really, really suck at aligning hoods and/or I'm just too much of a perfectionist. The former is most certainly true.

I took the hood off because I wanted to be absolutely certain that the pad would be perfectly square, so that it would be easy to get all of the old glue off, so that I wouldn't get schmutz or adhesive remover on anything under the hood and to minimize the possibility of inadvertently scratching, denting or breaking anything. I did this because I wanted to be as certain as possible that there would be nothing my client could point to as poor workmanship.

Was 2.5 hours too much labor to charge?

If you had to warrant your work, how many hours of labor would you spend doing the job? And would you do it the same way?

What is book rate for a hood pad change? (I don't know the answer, maybe Sean does.)

I'm pretty sure GB's shop rate is at least $180/hr. That rate is still a 'bargain' in CA where dealers in LA and Silly Cone Valley are charging $250/hr.

So, that $540 labor charge is for 3 hours of labor max. It might be as little as 2-ish hours if he's charging 'dealer' labor.

So again, I'm not sure if I should be indignant about the labor charge for the hood pad.

What I am thinking about being indignant about is the $50 charge for 3M adhesive remover. It's $20 per quart and you can't use a quart for that job unless you're drinking it as you go. So that seems not right. On the other hand, since it's California they may have to pay quite a bit extra and fill out various environmental impact statements every time they unscrew the cap.

The devil is always in the details.
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By milrad
#106894
Daaayum! That said, removing adhesive sucks. I'd rather eat it than remove it.

But $270 labor to swap out the engine bay fuel lines? Ouch.
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By worf
#106897
milrad wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:11 pm But $270 labor to swap out the engine bay fuel lines? Ouch.
Well what to you make of this then?

And before you answer: On days two and three, the owner was with me handing me tools. So, no chance at padding the bill in any way.

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By SeanR
#106904
Hood pad, I charge however long it takes me. If it comes in scrapped off and cleaned like I tell most everyone to do so they won't be paying me what they can do over a 6 pack. 2 hours tops.

Fuel lines will depend on what year car and how buggared the lines are at the hard to get to spots. Early cars are most times a 3-4 hour job. 87+ is usually 2.5-3.5 but in all actuality it takes me less time because I've got the tools and the know how to do them quicker.

I'm like Worf, trying to decipher what are on the invoices on cars that come to me is entertainment only. I've seen shops charge 5 hours for a timing belt change and I know not all the things are getting done that need to be done. People will call asking what I charge and typically I tell them it's minimum 10 hours labor with a max of 13 or so depending on what I find. Had more than one guy come back after having the cheaper shop not do anything correctly so they get to pay for it twice.

I remember one car of mine that hit BaT that went through 2 other shops after they had it with me because I charge too much and that was when my labor rate was cheap. The seller asked me to email him his old invoice and when it showed up on BaT it was edited for some damn odd reason with prices and labor hours changed. That's when I stopped sending out editable Excel docs of my invoices.
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By Geza-aka-Zombo
#106938
I guess I got lucky with my hood pad removal/install as it only took me about a half hour. I remember because it was delivered late in the day, and I installed it after work and before dinner. It was my first 928 fix.

With the hood in place, I laid a sheet over the engine compartments and scraped off the pulverized foam with a plastic scraper. It came off very fast and clean. The old adhesive was solid except around the perimeter, where it was a bit goopy. I started to clean off the goopy stuff with a dry rag for a few minutes when I realized it wasn't necessary then wiped the entire surface with alcohol.

On the new waffle type pad, I cut the removable liner down the middle and twice across making 6 panels. I put the pad up and taped it in place with blue tape. I peeled each of the 6 liner pieces and I worked from the top down. Came out great - that was 3 years ago with absolutely no evidence that it will not remain properly in place for the duration.

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By worf
#106981
Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:19 am I guess I got lucky with my hood pad removal/install as it only took me about a half hour. I remember because it was delivered late in the day, and I installed it after work and before dinner. It was my first 928 fix.
I'm gonna bet that it was closer to 45 to 55 minutes. This based upon years of observing engineers estimating, managing, and reporting their time on task.
Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:19 am I started to clean off the goopy stuff with a dry rag for a few minutes when I realized it wasn't necessary then wiped the entire surface with alcohol.
It's interesting to know that you don't have to remove the old adhesive. It's not a best practice. But, next time I have to do a hood pad I'll offer that as a labor saving "gamble."
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By Geza-aka-Zombo
#106991
I suppose for the time and money savings not removing the old adhesive on just one hood, you could buy an extra hood pad, cut it up into a bunch of pieces, and test out the surfaces before hand on numerous hoods going forward....
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By Mongo
#107035
No picture for this anecdote but I spent 2 years trying to figure out why my fuse 24 blew more than Paris Hilton only to find out the car needed a new battery. Never did it again...ever.
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By milrad
#107199
worf wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:25 pm
milrad wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:11 pm But $270 labor to swap out the engine bay fuel lines? Ouch.
Well what to you make of this then?

And before you answer: On days two and three, the owner was with me handing me tools. So, no chance at padding the bill in any way.

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Well, I stand corrected.
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By linderpat
#107248
Dave, Geza, Roger recommends leaving the old adhesive on when installing the hood pad, but that applies to the ones with the adhesive already on the pad. I've installed 4 of them now, in the car, without removing the hood. Cover engine bay, scrape off any looses stuff, shop vac what's left, then then first dry fit without pulling the masking off the back of the pad. Once you get a sense for alignment, start at the top of the open hood (the front). Let gravity allow it to drop down and slowly peel off ot he backing and press into place. Do not pull down on the pad while fitting it - gravity alone. When you get to the bottom, tuck it in with a flat plastic tool, into the lip. I've had very good success doing it this way, and on my cars, the honeycomb squares are nicely aligned, and the pads have held up well for a very long time (never had one fail).

YMMV, but doing it this way cuts down on time. I won't argue with any time you guys state, because it always takes me 3X what the pros do,
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By worf
#107282
linderpat wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:23 pm Dave, Geza, Roger recommends leaving the old adhesive on when installing the hood pad, but that applies to the ones with the adhesive already on the pad.
Good to know.
linderpat wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:23 pm I've installed 4 of them now, ... YMMV, but doing it this way cuts down on time.
In my experience the third time is the charm.
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By worf
#107283
milrad wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:45 am
worf wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:25 pm
milrad wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:11 pm But $270 labor to swap out the engine bay fuel lines? Ouch.
Well what to you make of this then?
Well, I stand corrected.
For purposes of full disclosure, most of the time my labor charge for replacing fuel lines is minimal or effectively zero.

As part of a full intake refresh the old lines go in the box that will become trash when the job's done and when it's time to reassemble the new lines go on.

That invoice is the only example of where *nothing* else was done except fuel lines.
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By SeanR
#107332
worf wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:53 pm
milrad wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:45 am
worf wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:25 pm
Well what to you make of this then?
Well, I stand corrected.
For purposes of full disclosure, most of the time my labor charge for replacing fuel lines is minimal or effectively zero.

As part of a full intake refresh the old lines go in the box that will become trash when the job's done and when it's time to reassemble the new lines go on.

That invoice is the only example of where *nothing* else was done except fuel lines.
Yep. Same. I include the fuel lines on a top end refresh job and that labor rate varies by a wide margin.
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