General discussions related to cars and driving
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By N_Jay
#152863
Does anyone have a suggestion for talking an MB dealer down to a reasonable service cost.

Just got the estimate on my GL320, and the first thing they need to do is $500 of parts sold at $800 and a 1 to 2 hour job priced out at 6 hours at $180 per hour.

For that price I want way more than just a happy ending.
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By David993S
#152895
I doubt you can talk them down to a reasonable cost. MB dealers are known (notorious) for outrageously high service costs. I mean Stratosphere high. I never take my SL550 to the dealer. If you can try to find a good independent shop that knows MB.
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By fpena944
#152901
N_Jay wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:34 am Does anyone have a suggestion for talking an MB dealer down to a reasonable service cost.

Just got the estimate on my GL320, and the first thing they need to do is $500 of parts sold at $800 and a 1 to 2 hour job priced out at 6 hours at $180 per hour.

For that price I want way more than just a happy ending.
David993S wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:43 pm I doubt you can talk them down to a reasonable cost. MB dealers are known (notorious) for outrageously high service costs. I mean Stratosphere high. I never take my SL550 to the dealer. If you can try to find a good independent shop that knows MB.
If you're willing to go to across the lake to Denver my friend has a shop out there he's been happy with.

I've also seen a couple in Concord that service MBs. Let me know if interested and I'll get you more info.
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By N_Jay
#152937
I normally don't use the dealer, bur being as it was un movable and not reading codes, I didn't want to get to an independent shop that might get lost in the weeds.
If I wasn't so pissed off I probably would have thought about the prefuse box.
Now that it is there I am stuck because it will cost me the diagnosis and towing in charge, plus the towing out charge, just to go somewhere else.
I would happily (well not happily) pay their ridiculous hourly rate for real hours.
But how the hell do you spend 6 hours swapping two plug in and bolt down fuse boxes?

I already have a line on the parts at a local parts yard.
Of course, even most independent shops won't install used parts.
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By XR4Tim
#153132
What I do is tell them that I will only pay up to MSRP for parts and labor times that can be verified in a published labor guide. It works for me as a warranty company, but maybe it could work for you, too.
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By N_Jay
#153164
XR4Tim wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:10 pm What I do is tell them that I will only pay up to MSRP for parts and labor times that can be verified in a published labor guide. It works for me as a warranty company, but maybe it could work for you, too.

Can I tell them I have a warranty and when they contact you, you work down the price and we can split the savings. :)
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By XR4Tim
#153165
Haha. It might work if you just tell them that your warranty will only reimburse you for MSRP and a published labor time.
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By fast_freddy
#153365
My local dealer is called the AutoMaster but I've called it the AutoMistress. They whack you for service at $180/per and keystone margin the parts. Guess where they get most of their parts? RockAuto! lol

So.... I do much of the work myself, but not all. It's not like it's skilled labor. Get an iCarsoft MBII tool for $150 and a mid rise lift off of Craigslist for $700~ and call it a day. Seriously. For stuff I can't be bothered with I use an Indy wrench. It's a car, it's not super complicated, especially with the proper diagnostic tool.
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By N_Jay
#153378
I also do most of my own work

Issue here was an electrical problem that was showed up after an electrical repair that left me locked in park on the side of the road.
And the diagnostic tool would not read the transmission at all.

If I wasn't so pissed off I probably would have thought about checking the pre-fuse Box.
But even that would have left me waiting for parts for a week With the car blocking one lane on a curve in the neighborhood.
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By AKSteve
#154070
Jeebus, I've already gotten used to $400+ oil changes, but the Porsche dealer just tried to charge me over $1,700 for:
Oil Change
Brake Fluid Flush
Cabin Air Filter
Full Detail.

Now, the detail job was $200 and like I said I know the oil changes used to be around $400, so the service guy tried to say that the rest of the cost was from flushing the brake fluid. Which works out to 2 hours labor and $1,1000 total for that job. :eyepop:

Anyway, luckily I remembered that I had signed a written estimate for $1,200 when I dropped the car off. The service guy had to clack away on his computer for a few minutes to get the price down and then claimed it was because they recently raised their hourly rates and the system was "in between somehow" when I signed the estimate. As if the $1,700 was the right price and I was now getting a good deal.

I guess it's warranty work only at the local Porsche dealership from now on.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the "detail" job included waxing the car. Well when I went to pick the car up it looked like all they did was give it a good wash and then spray it with SpeedShine. They had to keep the car a second day for this work and claimed the detail job took all day yesterday. Well, the paint felt like shit and you could still see all of the little minor scratches that were in the clear coat when I dropped it off. So I had to leave the car with them for another day, making this whole thing a 3 day process.

Last item: No loaner car. Apparently they've just decided to completely not do that anymore, but they lie to every customer and tell them that they just don't have any cars available "today."
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By AKSteve
#154084
Is the service department at a dealership required to post their hourly rate on the wall somewhere, or did I dream that up? I seem to recall this being a requirement at every auto shop. The dealer had to order a part for my sunroof and I'll be going back there in a few weeks and I was hoping to ask them to show me where they have their hourly rate posted.
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By XR4Tim
#154124
AKSteve wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:04 am Is the service department at a dealership required to post their hourly rate on the wall somewhere, or did I dream that up? I seem to recall this being a requirement at every auto shop. The dealer had to order a part for my sunroof and I'll be going back there in a few weeks and I was hoping to ask them to show me where they have their hourly rate posted.
I don't know if it's a legal requirement, but when I worked there, they did have the hourly labor rate posted behind the service desk.
I can't fathom how those items would reach $1,700.00. A brake fluid flush is literally just brake fluid and 2 hours of labor. The cabin filter was usually about 0.5 hours plus the filter.
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By AKSteve
#154138
XR4Tim wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:18 am I can't fathom how those items would reach $1,700.00. A brake fluid flush is literally just brake fluid and 2 hours of labor. The cabin filter was usually about 0.5 hours plus the filter.
When I first signed the written estimate for $1,200 it was for the 20k Mile Service plus a $200 detail. Is there something more the th 20k service that you can think of because when I went to pick the car up and asked what all they did I was told: Oil Change, Brake fluid flush and cabin air filter. I'll have to check the paperwork, but I think the guy only gave me a smaller receipt after I complained and he reduced the cost back down to my estimate.
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By XR4Tim
#154143
There would be some labor time worked into that for all of the "check/inspect" items on the service list and scan for faults. Nothing out of the ordinary.
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By AKSteve
#154200
XR4Tim wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:56 pm There would be some labor time worked into that for all of the "check/inspect" items on the service list and scan for faults. Nothing out of the ordinary.
Here is my "adjusted" bill after they jacked up all the prices and then had to discount everything back down again. It's still about $100 more than they originally quoted me, but whatever. There's another page that shows the $200 detail job being written up as a $300 job and then discounted back down to... $190. Lol.

I don't know if they did all of this because I complained about the work they originally did detailing my car or what. They basically did the work on my car and then jacked up all the prices hoping I would just pay it, I guess.

And I'm hoping the fact that the inside of my car smells like a farm animal died while taking a dump is due to the leather cleaner that they used.


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By XR4Tim
#154204
They're charging well over MSRP for the parts. The oil filter o-ring retails for like $10.80, and the drain plug ("cap" on the list) should be $8 or $9. Almost $30/quart for oil is insane, but they are using the part number for 1 liter bottles. If they ordered it in quarts (000-043-303-16) it would be about half that price.
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By AKSteve
#154223
What a joke. And, keep in mind, the original bill was $400 higher, all labor. So, almost $1,200 just for labor for this routine service.

I guess I just became another one of their customers who goes to Arctic Imports for non-warranty service.

I notice a while back that I no longer get after service email surveys from Porsche. Is that something Porsche has totally stopped doing, or is the local dealership just not telling Porsche when their customers come in for service?
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By AKSteve
#154232
XR4Tim wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:32 pm Almost $30/quart for oil is insane, but they are using the part number for 1 liter bottles.
I checked my bill from last year's oil change and the total was $328.01, with the cost of oil (7L) being $64.47, or $9.21/L. So about $200 more for oil than last year. There is one difference with this year's bill stating that they're using "C-40 Spec Porsche Engine Oil."

Regardless, they totally ripped me off and would've ripped me even worse if I hadn't brought up the signed estimate. What a bunch of assholes. Makes me happy that my last sports car purchase was an M4.
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By AKSteve
#154259
Hmm...One last thing....I logged into my PorscheID to make sure that they have my correct email address, etc. just in case they try to send me a survey or anything. I also checked the trip log for my car. I dropped it off Monday morning and they had it until Wednesday at 5pm. It appears my car was driven 56 miles during this time period. Less than 5 miles of that would've been me taking the car in to the dealership. I'm wondering if I should go in and talk to the manager (service? general?) about this whole situation.

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By XR4Tim
#154279
Part of the service involves a road test, but the only reason they should be putting that many miles on it is if they were trying to diagnose a particular drivability issue. Might be worth bringing it up to the service manager.
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By AKSteve
#154280
I emailed Porsche USA first to ask for detailed info on any trips take on the 6th,7th, 8th. My PorscheID doesn't show info for the 8th yet. Just the fact that it took them 3 days to work on my car is ridiculous. I still swear that the first "detail" job they did was just a to wash my car and spray it with SpeedShine.
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By worf
#154288
AKSteve wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:18 am
There is one difference with this year's bill stating that they're using "C-40 Spec Porsche Engine Oil."
What model year is this P-car? As of MY’20 C40-spec oil is required (might be ‘19…) Look in your owners manual.

And until recently has been very difficult to get at the consumer level and even at the dealer level.

Based upon what you’ve written here, your p-car got the A40-spec oil last year. So the dealer put in the wrong oil either this year, or last year. Neither oil is compatible with the ‘wrong’ mechanicals. You can’t use A40 in a C40 car and you can’t use C40 in an A40 car.

XR4Tim is *so* right: the parts are marked up 100% for the cabin filters and 3x to 4x for the other stuff. ($45 for a quart of brake fluid? FFS. It’s Pentosin Super DOT 4 LV in a porsche-colored can and probably not even that. $18 at Autozone. Less in bulk mail order.)

There’s actually a bunch of inspection stuff that is supposed to get done. Porsche’s book time for the yearly is very generous so that techs will *actually do* the inspections rather than just rush the oil change.

That said I can’t imagine it would take more than 4 hours for the full monty. Looks like your Dealer’s looking for a $250/hour labor rate. Hope the coffee in the waiting area is really good.
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By AKSteve
#154293
My car is a 2020 C4S. I actually asked for C40 oil the first time I had an oil change and no one ate the dealership knew what it was. They told me not to worry though because they use "exactly what Porsche gives us."

Does C40 oil cost over 4X's as much as the old A40 oil? And is there any reason why they would need 9 Liters of oil for a car that only needed 7 Liters last year?
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By XR4Tim
#154328
Porsche did have a book time for annual services. If I remember right it was 4 hours for the 20k, and 7 or 8 for the 40k. Very generous indeed. The 20k would actually take 2 hours max.
There's no reason the oil capacity would change between services. I don't know what the actual oil capacity of the 992 is, but it would be at least 7 liters. I'm not sure how special C40 is, but by the part number it is a Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic like the old A40 part.
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By maddog2020
#154560
recently took my 2015 ML400 to the dealer to warranty an AC fix that didn't fix the problem. I got an email with a link to authorize additional work.

Rear pads and rotors
new tires
bleed brakes
oil change
alignment

Total $7800. Tires were $3400 of it.

Granted it did need new pads and rotors on the rear and the tires are near gone, but the tire wear on the outside of the front tires is from me driving the piss out of it. not an alignment issue.

I declined all of it except the AC repair which still didn't fix the issue. I did the rear pads and rotors, on my own(FCP euro because they lifetime warranty rotors) for $309 a few weeks later. It does need an oil change but I'm not biting on their $765 oil change.
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By tooloud10
#154647
maddog2020 wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:22 pm Tires were $3400 of it.
Just out of curiosity I looked up the cost on Tire Rack. Assuming the OEM 20s, you're looking at $1300 shipped for tires on that car--so they're marking up the *retail* price by 250%+ to install them.

There's no shame with these guys, so that's why I don't ever believe a word they say.
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By worf
#154677
XR4Tim wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:51 pm Porsche did have a book time for annual services. If I remember right it was 4 hours for the 20k, and 7 or 8 for the 40k. Very generous indeed. The 20k would actually take 2 hours max.
20k (two year) service is oil, cabin filters, brake fluid flush and inspections. If you skip the inspections it might be two hours if you rush it.

XR4Tim wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:51 pm There's no reason the oil capacity would change between services. I don't know what the actual oil capacity of the 992 is, but it would be at least 7 liters.
Capacity doesn’t change, but fill amount is very dependent upon drain time and can vary by over a quart. That written, @AKSteve’s dealer was probably “rounding” in their favor.

XR4Tim wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:51 pm I'm not sure how special C40 is, but by the part number it is a Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic like the old A40 part.
They (C40 and A40) are different enough that there is no - according to the WSM - forward or backward compatibility. Supply of Mobil C40 seems to have caught Covid in 2020, because it’s only in recent months that dealers are able to get it.

Last year, I as a Porsche non-dealer, could only get Liquid Moly C40 oil. Mobil C40 was no where to be found.
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By XR4Tim
#154778
worf wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:34 am
XR4Tim wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:51 pm Porsche did have a book time for annual services. If I remember right it was 4 hours for the 20k, and 7 or 8 for the 40k. Very generous indeed. The 20k would actually take 2 hours max.
20k (two year) service is oil, cabin filters, brake fluid flush and inspections. If you skip the inspections it might be two hours if you rush it.
For fairness' sake, I never did a service on a 992. But I never did have an issue with 986/996/987/997/Cayenne services in 2 hours. Get it on the lift and start draining the oil. Pull the wheels and use a pressure bleeder to flush the brake fluid. Perform all of the under-car inspections, mount the wheels, replace the oil filter & sealing ring, torque the drain plug(s) with new washer(s) (replace the plug if it was at all suspect). Lower the car, torque the wheels and fill the oil. Replace the cabin filter (super easy on any of those vehicles). Perform any exterior and interior checks. Read the DME and reset the service interval.
911 Turbos took a bit longer to change the oil, and air-cooled cars (especially 993s) took quite a bit more time.
I was not fast at much of anything, but I did have a good rhythm with the scheduled services.
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By worf
#154779
XR4Tim wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:19 pm For fairness' sake, I never did a service on a 992. But I never did have an issue with 986/996/987/997/Cayenne services in 2 hours. Get it on the lift and start draining the oil. Pull the wheels and use a pressure bleeder to flush the brake fluid. Perform all of the under-car inspections, mount the wheels, replace the oil filter & sealing ring, torque the drain plug(s) with new washer(s) (replace the plug if it was at all suspect). Lower the car, torque the wheels and fill the oil. Replace the cabin filter (super easy on any of those vehicles). Perform any exterior and interior checks. Read the DME and reset the service interval.
I've done that oil/filter/brake/cabin dance on 981/718/991/95B at least dozen times and it's always about 2.5 hours . (This, subtracting ~0.5 hours arbitrarily since I use lift bars instead of a lift.)

I suspect you are not keeping track of all of your time (setup, clean-up, test time, etc.) I track my time to the minute from bay door opening to bay door closing.

But, a half-hour here or there really doesn't matter: @AKSteve is still getting screwed.
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By worf
#154780
XR4Tim wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:19 pm For fairness' sake, I never did a service on a 992. But I never did have an issue with 986/996/987/997/Cayenne services in 2 hours.
I've never done that dance pre-981/991. Maybe the filter is easier to get to on the 9[89][67] or something.
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By XR4Tim
#154781
worf wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:34 pm
XR4Tim wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:19 pm For fairness' sake, I never did a service on a 992. But I never did have an issue with 986/996/987/997/Cayenne services in 2 hours.
I've never done that dance pre-981/991. Maybe the filter is easier to get to on the 9[89][67] or something.
You know what, the filters are much easier on the M96. Forgot about that. They're right next to the oil pan, and can drain at the same time very easily. And it's been a decade since I was at the dealership, so I cannot guarantee my times to the minute 😆. I wonder if I still have some time cards in my tool box...
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By AKSteve
#154792
XR4Tim wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:19 pm mount the wheels
Silly question, but did you ever align the Porsche crest and the locking wheel bolt? I’ve heard that’s a Porsche thing.
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By worf
#154794
AKSteve wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:42 pm
XR4Tim wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:19 pm mount the wheels
Silly question, but did you ever align the Porsche crest and the locking wheel bolt? I’ve heard that’s a Porsche thing.
I always line up the locking bolt with the valve stem.
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By worf
#154795
XR4Tim wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:39 pm You know what, the filters are much easier on the M96. Forgot about that. They're right next to the oil pan, and can drain at the same time very easily. And it's been a decade since I was at the dealership, so I cannot guarantee my times to the minute 😆. I wonder if I still have some time cards in my tool box...
991 filter you get to from the top. Have to take out the fans and then it’s a squeeze. Not a big deal but adds time. Also, all the new cars have no dip stick: you have to warm up to get a level. (PiWIS has real-time display but not as good as a true warm level read.)

718 is a ship in the bottle to get to the filter. 95B has a zillion bolt underbody cover.

Also, takes about 15 minutes to fill the 9[89][12]. Have to pour *slow* lest it run over and make a mess.
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By XR4Tim
#154872
AKSteve wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:42 pm
XR4Tim wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:19 pm mount the wheels
Silly question, but did you ever align the Porsche crest and the locking wheel bolt? I’ve heard that’s a Porsche thing.
I would align the point of the crest with the valve stem every time.
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By i am not a traitor
#154880
Normally, I drop my car off at a friend's house and he takes it to the Lexus dealership where he is a tech and he does whatever I need. I trust him and only him because I used to work in the industry. Finding someone you trust, the tech, AND the service writer is huge. So many people are willing to screw you over for an extra buck.

A couple of weeks ago I decided to drop my Audi off at the local Audi dealer for a recall. I figured while they had it, have them do the oil change since it was due. I was able to reserve a loaner car and showed up that morning and was on my way 5 minutes later. Later that afternoon I received a phone call that the car was ready to go. I asked for the final price and the service writer told me it was free. Immediately I thought they forgot to do the oil change and asked for what all was completed. Well, lucky for me, the 50,000-mile service was still free through Audi. I bought the car used, like I always do, and had no idea that there would have been free service.

What does this have to do with the OP? Nothing, really. I'm just happy I didn't get screwed and this thread reminds me why I have my buddy work on my vehicles.
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By Scott at Team Harco
#154882
XR4Tim wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:20 pm
AKSteve wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:42 pm
XR4Tim wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:19 pm mount the wheels
Silly question, but did you ever align the Porsche crest and the locking wheel bolt? I’ve heard that’s a Porsche thing.
I would align the point of the crest with the valve stem every time.
Beats balancing the wheel and tire assembly, every time. :thumbup:
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By fast_freddy
#157293
If the dealer tried to pull that shit on me, I would have said the following:

Either I have the words "fuck me out of my money, I'm a fool" written on my forehead. Or you are thieves. I don't have that written on my noggin so it must be the latter.

I have no problem paying for something worthwhile but those egregious profit margins are not going to happen. Find someplace else to have the work done.

Just the other day, my daughters car (99 Miata) wouldn't start. I slap the Mazda specific reader on it and it says fuel pump fault, I have it towed to a garage. They quote me for a fuel pump at $120 (no sweat) and labor of ninety minutes. I agree. I go to pick up the car and they add on a fuel pump relay for $120 and ninety minutes more of diagnostic work. I slide a check for the the quoted amount and say the car is coming with me. They say, "thats theft". I said what you're doing is slamming me with unauthorized and unneeded work and extorting me, I diagnosed the problem and relays cost $15. I'm happy to talk to the police then have a chat with the states AG office too. They started kissing my ass
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