[Crumpler]

I was texting back and forth with someone yesterday and the question was posed to me.
I equate the term to (highly) modified 356’s, but I believe there is a 911 sub-group as well.
So what’s the criteria? Obviously, pretty loose. If there’s a club standard I’m not aware of it.
What’s the break point of aftermarket performance upgrades?
Would a RUF conversion be an outlaw? Etc. Etc.
If the 911’s can be considered outlaws can a 928?

Forced induction yes? Am I an outlaw an didn’t even know it?!
What about LS conversions?
Meaningless rabbit hole, but the question made me think.

[Fox_]

928 is clearly an outlaw porsche because it has a v8 and a water pump.

[N_Jay]

I always figured the line was non-Porsche engine swap.

[Crumpler]

928 is clearly an outlaw porsche because it has a v8 and a water pump.

Ahhhhhhh. Well played. But Fox, wouldn't that make every bloated Panamera an Outlaw?
In addition, those air cooler boys don't have a lot of ammunition anymore. I read in R&T that by 2017 there were more water cooled 911's then air cooled 911's.

I always figured the line was non-Porsche engine swap.

I will buy that.

[XR4Tim]

But most 356 Outlaws still have Porsche motors... I always assumed it originally had something to do with modifying beyond SCCA rules or something along those lines.

[worf]

But most 356 Outlaws still have Porsche motors...

And the ’outlaw’ 911s have, generally newer ‘built’ 911 engines. Don’t they?

Never had notion what “Outlaw <vehicle>” was supposed to mean.

Good thread.

[Crumpler]

The movement seems to be mostly dependent on a bearded hipster. We need an icon like that boys.
Dave or Sean, pick straws to see which one of you grows the beard and dreadlocks.

[worf]

The movement seems to be mostly dependent on a bearded hipster. We need an icon like that boys.

I was gonna say something like that.

Dave or Sean, pick straws to see which one of you grows the beard and dreadlocks.

Not it.

BTDT, minus the dreads, but with hair 3/4-way down my back. Back in the day, pre-DOT-com bubble, if you weren't a hippy-looking fucker you couldn't get software VC money. Or, at least you'd better have a hippy-looking fucker or three on staff in upper management. Where do you think my screen name came from? Bestowed by my staff: Software Engineering Management by Worf.

[maddog2020]

I'd say any 928 pushed beyond reasonable limits, boosted, stroker, anything extreme. but it would have to be pushed to the limit in multiple areas, not just bolt on or a warmed over engine, brakes, suspension & wheels.

[Crumpler]

Hmmmmmmm.
I guess after researching this topic, I have found mostly boutique shops doing custom builds. Not really the antiestablishment or underground cool anymore.
In fact, I’m going to put on a limb here. By the time you buy this gold scripted badge for your 300,000.00 commissioned outlaw build, you are probably not an outlaw at all — you are probably a DB in a PCA windbreaker at the next local cars and coffee.

[worf]

By the time you buy this gold scripted badge for your 300,000.00 commissioned outlaw build, you are probably not an outlaw at all — you are probably a DB in a PCA windbreaker at the next local cars and coffee.

You're probably ----^ right. But, what does it take to not be a DB at a cars and coffee? No PCA windbreaker? What about holes in your grease-stained jeans? Where's the DB line?

What about in "Inlaw" build?

[Crumpler]

By the time you buy this gold scripted badge for your 300,000.00 commissioned outlaw build, you are probably not an outlaw at all — you are probably a DB in a PCA windbreaker at the next local cars and coffee.

You're probably ----^ right. But, what does it take to not be a DB at a cars and coffee? No PCA windbreaker? What about holes in your grease-stained jeans? Where's the DB line?

What about in "Inlaw" build?

Yeah, true. The DB line can be drawn over just about every social economic group. It probably applies more to my PCA brethren then the various amalgamation of people and cars at cars and coffee.
My chapter is more wine and cheese then any tech or racing. If there’s a tech session, it’s about which wax is best.
There’s a more money then sense vibe, that I get out of some of the players, but I’m sure that’s not exclusive to PCA.
I have a client that just paid the local Porsche dealer 11k to replace his ceramic rotors on a Panamera that I know doesn’t get pushed hard.
Meh.

[worf]

My chapter is more wine and cheese then any tech or racing. If there’s a tech session, it’s about which wax is best.

If we assume a certain uniformity across chapters then many events will be about "wine and cheese" and tech sessions are mostly a marketing ploy for the sponsering shop.

As an aside, group tech sessions are a poor forum anyway. I wrote my PPI doc, originally, as the result of a request by Greg Nichols (IIRC) for me to host the tech session at The Frenzy. If I was going to do it, then I wanted to make sure it was planned, scripted, etc. Not much more work to turn that into a document. Anyways, when I did the tech session out of about 100 people, most were talking amongst themselves and not too many were actually paying attention. That was the final nail in the coffin for me for big-group tech sessions: those are social occasions and not about 'tech.'

There’s a more money then sense vibe, that I get out of some of the players, but I’m sure that’s not exclusive to PCA.

Nope. I've gone to a few non-PCA C&Cs and the vibe is Penis Size Comparison. Although if you look carefully for folks with grease under their finger nails you can find "real" folks and have good conversation.

The folks you seek are more likely to be found at PCA DEs and A-Xs. SCCA A-Xs also. SCCA track days are, however, up here at least, reportedly brutal and not to be entered unless you do your own body work or just don't give a shit. And they like to 'target' nice cars. (So... DBs can be found anywhere.)

I have a client that just paid the local Porsche dealer 11k to replace his ceramic rotors on a Panamera that I know doesn’t get pushed hard.

Possible explanations for replacement of PCCB rotors absent track days:
- dealer just screwed him, vociferously and without lube
- mechanical damage due to FOD or screwing up wheel removal/install (see previous dealer bullet.)
- he's a left-foot braker and rides the brake with his left foot all the time.

[linderpat]

Sterling's build is what I'd consider an outlaw. Gorgeous modifications to the car with great performance improvements putting it far above factory. At least that's what I thought when I saw it back in 08 at SITM.

[Crumpler]

Sterling's build is what I'd consider an outlaw. Gorgeous modifications to the car with great performance improvements putting it far above factory. At least that's what I thought when I saw it back in 08 at SITM.

I agree, it’s a beast worthy of the moniker.

Does this mean you will do the dreadlocks thing Ed?
You didn’t say no.

[worf]

Does this mean you will do the dreadlocks thing Ed?
You didn’t say no.

I think Sterling should do the dreads.

[maddog2020]

lol I'd have to have more hair to grow dreads... on the outlaw, most of those that I've seen had stripped out interiors and roll cages so I wouldn't even consider mine an outlaw. my description for a 928 would be a full stroked track car with no interior full welded cage, and sleek body lines, parking light's filled in , and something like a 928 RSR.

I consider mine to be an extreme restomodded 928.

[Wisconsin Joe]

But most 356 Outlaws still have Porsche motors... I always assumed it originally had something to do with modifying beyond SCCA rules or something along those lines.

That's my understanding.


Taking a car beyond 'spec' or class rules or that sort of thing.

Some folks make an 'outlaw' race car by making mods that are not spotted during tech inspection, or can be 'snuck in' between tech and race start (and then removed before post race tech).
But that's just 'cheating'.

Because of the 'badass' connotations, it's evolved to mean all sorts of stupid stuff.
Poseurs & wannabes need to make others think they are tough, so they need the 'outlaw' moniker to boost their ego.

[worf]

Some folks make an 'outlaw' race car by making mods that are not spotted during tech inspection, or can be 'snuck in' between tech and race start (and then removed before post race tech).
But that's just 'cheating'.

Reminds me of the Speedvision Challenge race Mark A was runnin' in 200x-ish with the White Car. He was off dumpster diving for tires and we were minding the shop. Scrutineer came by and started lookin' around asking questions. He asked "So that's a 5 liter right?" And before I could answer one of the other 928OC guys hanging out said "Oh no, that's a 6.5 liter!"

I had to step in right quick: "Nope. THAT motor is in his other car that he uses for POC and other stuff. *This* motor is a stock displacement 5.0."

Dude bought it. Walked off.

[Crumpler]

Speaking of outlaws, I got the state inspection today to get plates for this mother. Safety inspection only thank god.

[maddog2020]

when I get mine inspected in a few months it will be interesting. it is registered as an antique... lol that should get some looks from the guys at the inspection station.

[linderpat]

when I get mine inspected in a few months it will be interesting. it is registered as an antique... lol that should get some looks from the guys at the inspection station.

I just can't wait to see the fugger. Will you post pics? Inside and out? That is such a gorgeous car.

[maddog2020]

I cant wait to see the fugger on the road. I'm tired of looking at parts and working on small minute details that no one will ever see...

[JBRob007]

Hmmm... Good question... I suppose it could be any car that’s customized beyond what a typical owner would consider as “acceptable”. My 84 Euro’s engine is stock (because there’s not much improvement to be had) but the Exterior is “paint is to match“, absolutely the wrong wheels, the 2500 Watt Audiophile stereo system replaced the back seats, the entire car’s exterior has been “shaved“ and the WING... well, it speaks for itself. So... is it an Outlaw? The Werks judges at Amelia Island think so... Don’t get me started on a PCA Concourse!!! Too F’ing funny! They won’t let it in the door... which I’m kind of proud about that...

Plus, Dave Kindig labeled it “One Bitchin’ Ride!” so I guess that answers that ???

[linderpat]

^^^Yep, that's one badass car right there!